There was a thread on there the other day about Skype searching for user settings in other software and asking for permission to access other sensitive parts of a user's computer. That thread was mentioned on Slashdot.

Why has that post and thread been deleted? It is a legit concern for Skype users, and if the only response Skype is going to give is to delete it without public explanation there is a huge problem with Skype's credibility and trustworthiness.

Enquiring minds want to know what is going on, and an ethical company would address the concerns of it's users.

http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=95261

Right at the top of the first page. There isn't even the slightest cause for alarm. Says the same thing in the slashdot comments.

Actually, threads are very very rarely ever deleted on these forums, even as much as they would be. You can see we still have a lot of 1.3 issues threads floating around, and other issues that could be cumulated into one thread.

There's nothing wrong going on here, and the original thread you speak of is right there.

As you have noted here that there is a huge problem with Skype's credability and trustworthyness, could you emphasise this a little? I commented in the thread on this aswell, as I'm trying to work out where this resentment is coming from.

Andrew.

Why does Skype have a credibility problem?

1. Skype is a closed source vendor.
2. Closed source vendors do not have a good reputation for transparency.
3. Skype puts many more resources into working with Windows than with Linux. That causes distrust and hard feelings from your Linux customers.
4. Skype encrypts all transmissions so that it is very difficult to know just what is being transmitted over the network. That worries me as I, as well as most thinking people who have been bitten a few times, figure trust is something that must be earned.
5. What has Skype done to earn trust from the Linux community? I certainly haven't seen a history of openness, and that is what Linux users, in particular, are used to, and highly prize. Many of us quit using Windows because of trust issues, so do you really expect us to be trusting of proprietary software and vendors? If you do, you have a screw loose.
6. Skype is Peer-to-Peer networking and Peer-to-Peer networking is not highly trusted, even if it is used a lot.

You want more? That ought to be enough to give you a start. If Skype will address these issues I think Skype's credibility issues will slowly go away. They won't go away quickly because trust must be earned, but they will go away, if Skype begins to act in such a way as to build up a history of actions that demonstrate trustworthiness, transparency and goodwill. Words and games will not suffice. Only a history of trustworthy, transparent actions will build/repair Skype's credibility issues.

Well, I can't see the closed-source nature of Skype changing, so I can't address this point for you.

But overall, it seems to be that you're still holding a grudge against Skype. I appreciate that trust has to be earned, but it seems like many people here on the forums are of the opinion that anything not entirely trustworthy is immediately distrustful.

I don't believe this to be the case, and think that at the very least, there is a common ground here for us to build upon. If people already hold such resentment towards us, I honestly can't see anything positive coming from our actions.

With regards to openness, we've tried to be quite open here. Name some other closed applications that allow their developers to speak openly on the front-line.. there aren't that many. A few blogs exist, but two-way communications is extremely rare in this field.

With regards resources for Windows/Linux (or Mac), you have to keep in mind what an infinitessimely small market Linux really is from a company perspective. Once you take that into account, you'll actually find that Linux is flourished with resources. We have developers, machines, and access to the same graphics teams, designers and usability experts that exist on the other platforms. I wouldn't say that Linux is underresourced at this time. In the past, there have been times where we've had less than a complete team, and jobs have been advertised to fill these positions, which have consequently been filled. We are now running a complete team and development since I began (in August last year) has been incredible (I feel). You only get to see a bit of it (upon release) but the releases lately have been pretty frequent and featureful, and there's more exciting stuff happening every day.

Hope you can stay interested and hope this helps at least build some level of trust between us.

Andrew.

So you want Skype to quit the basic technology it's based on, peer-to-peer as well as disabling encryption? I think IRC is your tool of communication then.

With all the resentments against Skype I must say that I was positively surprised that they did not delete some of the posts I have made here.

For my part the main issues are:

eBay has an history of beeing more than cooperative to federal agencies. If I were the NSA and wanted to spy on instant messages and VoIP communications, eBay would be the first company I would approach.
http://www.fitug.de/news/newsticker/newsti...0203112331.html

While every other instant messaging protocol (ICQ, AIM, MSN, ...) has been reverse-engineered to provide an open source client, Skype has taken major efforts in order to prevent anyone from knowing what is going over the network. Thereby also tying users to their client.

@andypoo: I can only wonder how Skype 1.4 got through usability testing then. I have 97 contacts on my list and got very lost with all my offline buddies showing and no contact groups.

@claudius: In fact I use IRC a lot. Still I prefer encrypted communication over SILC or Jabber.

Maybe you could gain some trust from the community if you provide a minimal client like ICQ2Go and/or create a public interface just for login, presence notification and text messaging.

Tom

Actually, that's true, and I appreciate that.

My only frustration is the sluggish rate of progress on the Linux Skype client. I am not going to join the chorus about video support - in fact, for the record, I don't want it and wouldn't use it if it was there.

I would like to see more effort in getting the basics right, such as good sound quality (which for some reason seems to have taken a step backward in 1.4.0.99) and simple features like SMS. This should come BEFORE devoting resources to jazzing up the interface or farting around with video support.

I haven't been affected too badly by the more glaring missteps in development, since I make a habit of keeping older versions of the program until I am sure the new one works. I don't really care if the Skype lawyers have a problem with that; as far as I'm concerned, this is just an incentive to come up with a business model that doesn't involve pulling the rug from under their customers.

Sound quality has been a primary focus for 1.4. This regression for some users in .99 is concerning, and we're looking into this a lot. The AGC changes improved things for a lot of people, but it is sounding like these issues people are experiencing are more than mixer level controls changing. And there really hasn't been a lot of code-changes in the sound engine otherwise since the last release.

There will be an option to turn off AGC in the UI in the next release.

If you would like SMS now, there are some handy tools which use the public API floating around on the forums.

Andy.

Your reply is one of the problems I see with Skype's credibility.....

You asked me what I thought caused the credibility problems Skype has. I answered that exact question from the observations I have made here and elsewhere . What did you do with my reply? Personalize it. I never said I thought you could/should open source Skype. I said that being a proprietary vendor is a source of Skype's credibility problems with the open source community. If you don't like that observation that doesn't make it any less true. It's true and it's a big source of Skype's credibility problems. So is the lack of transparency that comes at least partially from being a proprietary vendor. That's true for almost everyone who is an open source advocate. We like knowing exactly what we are getting. We like the advantages of open source.

If you want to be a proprietary vendor then you have to accept the fact that you will always be distrusted by the Linux community. You could marginalize that somewhat by at least being more open about how things are moving along in development. The way you guys approach your relationships with your users seems to me like an attitude of "you'll get what you get when you get it, and you can take it or leave". Now, that may not be your attitude as you perceive it, but that is certainly how you are perceived by a large portion of the people on these forums. If you don't believe it then take a look at all the complaining about how you guys choose to communicate. If you want to change how you are perceived, then you are the ones who have to change how you do things.

It's not your users who have to change. You know, it's that little thing called customer service which most of worlds corporations seem to think they can ignore anymore.... Well, they can't, and you guys are starting to feel the backlash. The consumer is sick of being thought of as nothing but a cash cow. We want respect because without us you would be absolutely nothing, and until companies start to really take that to heart, they will always have a credibility problem with the public. We, the consumer, feed and clothe you, and never forget that. This idea that companies can safely bite the hands that feed them is based on some pretty specious reasoning.

You also never answered what my question as to what Skype has done to combat its credibility problems. I haven't seen any actions that amounted to much. Sure, you're talking to me but you're not really listening. If you were you would be applying what I said to the world at large, not just trying to make this all about me, and then saying I hate Skype because I was actually responsive to your questions. All I can say to that is if you don't really want to hear an honest answer, then don't ask a question for which you don't want to hear the answers. That's just pure BS and further erodes Skype's credibility because it shows one of three things, in my estimation:

1. You are ignoring feedback because you really don't like what is being said.
2. You're just playing games and trying to marginalize the messenger.
3. You are living in Egypt, the land of de Nile....

Although I agree with what you say, I have realized a while ago that any source of income which is not crucial to the financial status of a corporation is not treated as well as it should be. The sad truth is that, for now, we (Linux) don't provide them with the bulk of their meal. And, unethical as it may be, we don't get the same attention as Windows users. And I don't expect Skype to break that habit any more than I expect any other corporation, even if on their main page they boast about caring about all their users so much.

I don't really hold any grudges against the Skype for Linux coders, even though I'd probably work a bit harder if I were an insider. Then again, who knows what's really going on behind closed doors and issuing orders.... After all, since eBay came into the picture, Skype has lost a lot of credibility. We shall wait and see.

This is very clever of Skype:

• they listen to happy customers
• they listen to unhappy customers
• they even listen to people promoting competing products

They learn a lot about the perception of the users, the people who move away, new users, complaints, etc.

I repeat: very clever listening ear!

Maybe we're getting a little confused here, ffreeloader.

I was responding to a message from you with regards to your thoughts on our credability.

I was hoping that I was keeping a reasonable dialog open, and I thought my message was worded appropriately. I was trying to avoid any aggression whatsoever and be helpful.

When making blog posts, I've tried to let you know exactly where development is at, and what's being planned for the next release. I've even given timeframes where possible.

Anyway, it seems that all I can do here is a dig a hole, so I'll give up.

Andrew.

Okay, well, I took offense to a reply where I was trying to be helpful, so you'll have to forgive my sarcasm, but I'm human.


I disagree. I tried to comment on each piece of feedback you provided. Skype is a proprietry vendor, and no matter what we do, that can't change. If this point is enough to let everybody hate us, then there's nothing more I can do to address Skype's credability issues as a lowly developer. My argument was that I didn't see why Skype had to be seen in such a bad light.

How so? I thought I've been quite helpful here to people on the forums. I've helped people both on the forums, and even via PMs where there's been extended sound issues or logs, and on Skype itself. I give as much as I can to make this client that I help develop a great thing.

Only remaining possibility.. Oh well, at least it starts with an E.

Andrew.

Regarding the post from ffreeloader I must say that Andypoo has indeed earned some trust and credibility with me. If there is spyware in Skype, I believe he does not know about it.

However, if Skype really wants credibility, I would suggest one of the following:
- Create a public API (closed source library) that exports Skype functionality but does not access the file system or X server.
- Make a public protocol that provides Skype's functionality but allows open source clients.

I really cannot understand how either one of these would hurt your business. In fact having an open source client would mean more satisfied users thereby increasing reputation and revenues.

Tom

Like i explained quickly in the other thread, linux users use closed source apps as last choice and only when there's no other way. No one in the the linux community will encourage closed source apps neither support them, BTW if the skype protocol would have been opened we would surely already have the video.

I would rather for example use ekiga with skype support to talk with my skype only friends than skype directly. As long as the skype protocol will remain closed you will get this trustworthyness issue with the linux community.
So like you said the closed source nature of skype is not going to change for the moment and it is understandable regarding the number of linux users over the world. I think we will surely have a different feedback from the skype team in the next years now that linux is growing fast and that dell, lenovo and most the big laptop sellers are selling (or planning to sell) pre-installed linux laptops.

I'm not sure skype will be able to keep this stance forever if the linux community still grow in the future as it is growing currently or skype will maybe just lose this market.

Thanks for your feedback which I like to sum up as the following:

Create a thin Linux client with a Public API that enables freeware developers to create their own UI.

Correct?

My suggestion:
Start creating your own Skype UI using the existing Public API and offer an alternative. With the API silent mode you can even suppress the vanilla Skype UI. At least I learned that part of the Linux/OS spirit is to compete and that the best will win mos users. The race is open.

This would require to give the informations about the skype protocol and this obviously imply a will to open the skype protocol which (according to what i read here) is not on the list for the moment so even if i understand perfectly your logic (i may have had the same speach if i was at your position) i think you would agree with me that for the moment it sounds a bit difficult.
Anyway my point is more that the linux world don't like to use closed source apps (for good and also bad reasons) and you will still have this trustworthyness issue as long as the skype protocol remain closed and this whatever the proof you will give.

Now as for my personal opinion i trust skype but the linux client developped by skype isn't as stable as the other VOIP apps like ekiga which have 6 years of linux experience now, but my opinion don't matter i was just trying to explain that the trustworthyness issues is related to the closed nature of skype (again for good and bad reasons).

Excuse me? Public API is public. You can do everything you need to do to have a fully functional Skype client.

Sorry. My bad (blush) I missed to post the link: https://developer.skype.com/Docs/ApiDoc/FrontPage

You can even beat the official Skype UI by offering SMS functionality which is available via the Public API

I'm scared that you missed the point (maybe my English is not clear enough sorry), client source code is also a must to have to open the door to alternative client, otherwise things has to be started from scratch and without a strong will no one will begin this adventure. We all know that without will on both sides nothing will move (e.g. 1.3 skype version and alsa devs interaction http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=42232&st=26#)

Anyway i was answering your question about the untrustworthyness around skype and explaining why this is not going to change whatever the valuable proof you can give, i let the technical questions to knowledgable developers (what i am definitely not).

Has anyone tried to use the API to send SMS on linux?

The API also provides for video functions but I doubt they will work.

Tom

Yup, there are a few floating around the forums.

Here's one:
http://forum.skype.com/index.php?showtopic=96258

Andy.

Ummmm.... Go read your original post to me and see what question you actually asked me. If you will remember you asked me why Skype has a credibility problem because you had noticed that there is definitely a problem for Skype in this area. Now, go verify that in your post and you will see that I am 100% correct in this assertion.

You did not ask me about why, or if, I am personally upset with Skype. That is a completely separate question from the one you asked me. I also tried to make my reply to you about Skype, not you, personally, to take as much possible sting out of my words as I could . The only time I used the word "you" in my first reply to you was in the context of a generic "you", as in Skype the corporation.

Now, you, personally, take my answers and apply them to a question I, personally, was never asked, and then you wonder why I think you're playing games? What kind of fool do you take me to be? An illiterate one?

Can you not read and understand the meaning of the words you write? It doesn't seem as if you can....

ffreeloader: Just so you know, I read your post.

Andrew.

I think this thread should be locked ... i anyhow unsubscribed it. The tone of fffreellloaddder is almost insulting.

No fun anymore ... bye

I guess I should have known.....

I'm taken completely out of context, and then I'm accused of being insulting for calling the the Skype personnell on it.

And you guys wonder why Skype is peceived as arrogant and that Skype has credibility problems.....

This is really uncalled for, i don't understand how you can see the skype forum team as arrogant, they answer each thread of this forum even those which are flaming by nature so this is really uncalled for.

The problem with such behaviour (i'm talking about yours) is that it kills immediately all chances of to have a calm and productive discussion even if good point are made so i'm a bit disappointed as i thought good point could have been raised if we would have been able to have a calm and polite discussion.

Just to support skype with a personal comment.
Since the 1.4 series (alsa support, rewritten ui, chat reliability) my trust to skype is greater then ever!
I don't know a thing about skipe apis, but it is possible to run an opensource client without running the whole skype for linux?

i agree with frodon,
this argument was pushed too far.
why not channel your time and energy on getting things working and improved for others?

/out