Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts
By JAMES RISEN and ERIC LICHTBLAU
Published: December 16, 2005
WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the intelligence agency has monitored the international telephone calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants over the past three years in an effort to track possible "dirty numbers" linked to Al Qaeda, the officials said. The agency, they said, still seeks warrants to monitor entirely domestic communications.
The previously undisclosed decision to permit some eavesdropping inside the country without court approval was a major shift in American intelligence-gathering practices, particularly for the National Security Agency, whose mission is to spy on communications abroad. As a result, some officials familiar with the continuing operation have questioned whether the surveillance has stretched, if not crossed, constitutional limits on legal searches. ...
full article at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics...artner=homepage
Full Version: Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts
Is the use of spies really newsworthy in todays world? Is anyone surprised? What surprised me most about this latest "development" is the number of people who were surprised... I personally dont care and figured they were always doing it. BTW, does anyone believe that Bush is the first (and will be the last?)....
[quote=joaquinkline]Is the use of spies really newsworthy in todays world? Is anyone surprised? What surprised me most about this latest "development" is the number of people who were surprised... I personally dont care and figured they were always doing it. BTW, does anyone believe that Bush is the first (and will be the last?)....[/quote]
Domestic spying by governmental intelligence services on one's own citizens is always news worthy. Indeed, it is the duty of the free press to shout this from the mountain tops.
Domestic spying by governmental intelligence services on one's own citizens is always news worthy. Indeed, it is the duty of the free press to shout this from the mountain tops.
He can listen in to mine anytime.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
No, nothing to worry about.
No I have nothing to worry about from any Government listening into my calls.
As long as you get your 2-minute hate on Fox & Friends each morning all is okay.
[quote=muppetmaster]As long as you get your 2-minute hate on Fox & Friends each morning all is okay.[/quote]
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
[quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetmaster]As long as you get your 2-minute hate on Fox & Friends each morning all is okay.[/quote]
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.
[quote=muppetmaster][quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetmaster]As long as you get your 2-minute hate on Fox & Friends each morning all is okay.[/quote]
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.[/quote]
And you appear to seem to know what the whole thinks and now you can mind read. Wow. As always your opinion is correct and everyone is wrong.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.[/quote]
And you appear to seem to know what the whole thinks and now you can mind read. Wow. As always your opinion is correct and everyone is wrong.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.
[quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetmaster][quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetmaster]As long as you get your 2-minute hate on Fox & Friends each morning all is okay.[/quote]
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.[/quote]
And you appear to seem to know what the whole thinks and now you can mind read. Wow. As always your opinion is correct and everyone is wrong.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
It's not a matter of hiding and "being nice" to the government's eyes, it's just a matter of privacy and freedom. I don't feel free when somebody's listening to my private conversations, etc.
And sometimes is better to have something "not good" to the government's eyes. U know, the power of being capable of listening to all the private conversations u want is a power that can corrupt many politicians. FREEDOM means DEMOCRACY, and DEMOCRACY means THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE. If a corrupt president comes up (like George W. Bush) and he is capable to listen everything we say... hummm... somebody has to take him out... humm... i won't feel safe with a president like that (well, actually i don't, bombing here and there just for the fucking oil).
Just my opinion, i hate conformism.
ShurotH
PS: Sorry for my english, it's not my mother tongue.
No idea to what you are referring to?
However Fox, bunny rabbit, Bush, Blair they can all listen...Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
Yes, we all know you appear not to be aware of much. And now apparently willfully so.[/quote]
And you appear to seem to know what the whole thinks and now you can mind read. Wow. As always your opinion is correct and everyone is wrong.
Nothing to hide, nothing to worry about.[/quote]
It's not a matter of hiding and "being nice" to the government's eyes, it's just a matter of privacy and freedom. I don't feel free when somebody's listening to my private conversations, etc.
And sometimes is better to have something "not good" to the government's eyes. U know, the power of being capable of listening to all the private conversations u want is a power that can corrupt many politicians. FREEDOM means DEMOCRACY, and DEMOCRACY means THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE. If a corrupt president comes up (like George W. Bush) and he is capable to listen everything we say... hummm... somebody has to take him out... humm... i won't feel safe with a president like that (well, actually i don't, bombing here and there just for the fucking oil).
Just my opinion, i hate conformism.
ShurotH
PS: Sorry for my english, it's not my mother tongue.
This Call May Be Monitored ...
Published: December 18, 2005
On Oct. 17, 2002, the head of the National Security Agency, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden, made an eloquent plea to a joint House-Senate inquiry on intelligence for a sober national discussion about whether the line between liberty and security should be shifted after the 9/11 attacks, and if so, precisely how far. He reminded the lawmakers that the rules against his agency's spying on Americans, carefully written decades earlier, were based on protecting fundamental constitutional rights.
If they were to be changed, General Hayden said, "We need to get it right. We have to find the right balance between protecting our security and protecting our liberty." General Hayden spoke of having a "national dialogue" and added: "What I really need you to do is talk to your constituents and find out where the American people want that line between security and liberty to be."
General Hayden was right. The mass murders of 9/11 revealed deadly gaps in United States intelligence that needed to be closed. Most of those involved failure of performance, not legal barriers. Nevertheless, Americans expected some reasonable and carefully measured trade-offs between security and civil liberties. They trusted their elected leaders to follow long-established democratic and legal principles and to make any changes in the light of day. But President Bush had other ideas. He secretly and recklessly expanded the government's powers in dangerous and unnecessary ways that eroded civil liberties and may also have violated the law.
In Friday's Times, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau reported that sometime in 2002, President Bush signed a secret executive order scrapping a painfully reached, 25-year-old national consensus: spying on Americans by their government should generally be prohibited, and when it is allowed, it should be regulated and supervised by the courts. The laws and executive orders governing electronic eavesdropping by the intelligence agency were specifically devised to uphold the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures.
But Mr. Bush secretly decided that he was going to allow the agency to spy on American citizens without obtaining a warrant - just as he had earlier decided to scrap the Geneva Conventions, American law and Army regulations when it came to handling prisoners in the war on terror. Indeed, the same Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo, who helped write the twisted memo on legalizing torture, wrote briefs supporting the idea that the president could ignore the law once again when it came to the intelligence agency's eavesdropping on telephone calls and e-mail messages.
"The government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties," he wrote.
Let's be clear about this: illegal government spying on Americans is a violation of individual liberties, whether conditions are troubled or not. Nobody with a real regard for the rule of law and the Constitution would have difficulty seeing that. The law governing the National Security Agency was written after the Vietnam War because the government had made lists of people it considered national security threats and spied on them. All the same empty points about effective intelligence gathering were offered then, just as they are now, and the Congress, the courts and the American people rejected them.
This particular end run around civil liberties is also unnecessary. The intelligence agency already had the capacity to read your mail and your e-mail and listen to your telephone conversations. All it had to do was obtain a warrant from a special court created for this purpose. The burden of proof for obtaining a warrant was relaxed a bit after 9/11, but even before the attacks the court hardly ever rejected requests.
The special court can act in hours, but administration officials say that they sometimes need to start monitoring large batches of telephone numbers even faster than that, and that those numbers might include some of American citizens. That is supposed to justify Mr. Bush's order, and that is nonsense. The existing law already recognizes that American citizens' communications may be intercepted by chance. It says that those records may be retained and used if they amount to actual foreign intelligence or counterintelligence material. Otherwise, they must be thrown out.
President Bush defended the program yesterday, saying it was saving lives, hotly insisting that he was working within the Constitution and the law, and denouncing The Times for disclosing the program's existence. We don't know if he was right on the first count; this White House has cried wolf so many times on the urgency of national security threats that it has lost all credibility. But we have learned the hard way that Mr. Bush's team cannot be trusted to find the boundaries of the law, much less respect them.
Mr. Bush said he would not retract his secret directive or halt the illegal spying, so Congress should find a way to force him to do it. Perhaps the Congressional leaders who were told about the program could get the ball rolling.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/18/opinion/.../18sun1.html?hp
Published: December 18, 2005
On Oct. 17, 2002, the head of the National Security Agency, Lt. Gen. Michael Hayden, made an eloquent plea to a joint House-Senate inquiry on intelligence for a sober national discussion about whether the line between liberty and security should be shifted after the 9/11 attacks, and if so, precisely how far. He reminded the lawmakers that the rules against his agency's spying on Americans, carefully written decades earlier, were based on protecting fundamental constitutional rights.
If they were to be changed, General Hayden said, "We need to get it right. We have to find the right balance between protecting our security and protecting our liberty." General Hayden spoke of having a "national dialogue" and added: "What I really need you to do is talk to your constituents and find out where the American people want that line between security and liberty to be."
General Hayden was right. The mass murders of 9/11 revealed deadly gaps in United States intelligence that needed to be closed. Most of those involved failure of performance, not legal barriers. Nevertheless, Americans expected some reasonable and carefully measured trade-offs between security and civil liberties. They trusted their elected leaders to follow long-established democratic and legal principles and to make any changes in the light of day. But President Bush had other ideas. He secretly and recklessly expanded the government's powers in dangerous and unnecessary ways that eroded civil liberties and may also have violated the law.
In Friday's Times, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau reported that sometime in 2002, President Bush signed a secret executive order scrapping a painfully reached, 25-year-old national consensus: spying on Americans by their government should generally be prohibited, and when it is allowed, it should be regulated and supervised by the courts. The laws and executive orders governing electronic eavesdropping by the intelligence agency were specifically devised to uphold the Fourth Amendment's prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures.
But Mr. Bush secretly decided that he was going to allow the agency to spy on American citizens without obtaining a warrant - just as he had earlier decided to scrap the Geneva Conventions, American law and Army regulations when it came to handling prisoners in the war on terror. Indeed, the same Justice Department lawyer, John Yoo, who helped write the twisted memo on legalizing torture, wrote briefs supporting the idea that the president could ignore the law once again when it came to the intelligence agency's eavesdropping on telephone calls and e-mail messages.
"The government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties," he wrote.
Let's be clear about this: illegal government spying on Americans is a violation of individual liberties, whether conditions are troubled or not. Nobody with a real regard for the rule of law and the Constitution would have difficulty seeing that. The law governing the National Security Agency was written after the Vietnam War because the government had made lists of people it considered national security threats and spied on them. All the same empty points about effective intelligence gathering were offered then, just as they are now, and the Congress, the courts and the American people rejected them.
This particular end run around civil liberties is also unnecessary. The intelligence agency already had the capacity to read your mail and your e-mail and listen to your telephone conversations. All it had to do was obtain a warrant from a special court created for this purpose. The burden of proof for obtaining a warrant was relaxed a bit after 9/11, but even before the attacks the court hardly ever rejected requests.
The special court can act in hours, but administration officials say that they sometimes need to start monitoring large batches of telephone numbers even faster than that, and that those numbers might include some of American citizens. That is supposed to justify Mr. Bush's order, and that is nonsense. The existing law already recognizes that American citizens' communications may be intercepted by chance. It says that those records may be retained and used if they amount to actual foreign intelligence or counterintelligence material. Otherwise, they must be thrown out.
President Bush defended the program yesterday, saying it was saving lives, hotly insisting that he was working within the Constitution and the law, and denouncing The Times for disclosing the program's existence. We don't know if he was right on the first count; this White House has cried wolf so many times on the urgency of national security threats that it has lost all credibility. But we have learned the hard way that Mr. Bush's team cannot be trusted to find the boundaries of the law, much less respect them.
Mr. Bush said he would not retract his secret directive or halt the illegal spying, so Congress should find a way to force him to do it. Perhaps the Congressional leaders who were told about the program could get the ball rolling.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/18/opinion/.../18sun1.html?hp
Indeed, nothing to hide, until my views and thoughts are criminalized.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.
[quote=muppetmaster]Indeed, nothing to hide, until my views and thoughts are criminalized.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.[/quote]
Thast the beauty of what I am saying and at last you agree. Well done. You can debate all you want because you have nothing to hide.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.[/quote]
Thast the beauty of what I am saying and at last you agree. Well done. You can debate all you want because you have nothing to hide.
[quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetmaster]Indeed, nothing to hide, until my views and thoughts are criminalized.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.[/quote]
Thast the beauty of what I am saying and at last you agree. Well done. You can debate all you want because you have nothing to hide.[/quote]
It appears I may better articulate your points for you. Simply stating "nothing to hide, nothing to worry about" obviously does not reflect your stance cleary enough for dopes like us.
Then we do agree, an open debate should be had. The POTUS is not breaking the law with his executive order, but not necessarily honoring the spirit of the US constitution, therefore Congress should introduce legislation to require an expedited process with the US courts for such eavesdropping to take place on a US citizen. Oversight of the government is always warranted.
An example of why oversight is necessary.
[quote=Lord Acton]Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely[/quote]
Bringing this change in policy to the public for an open debate is a sign of a healthy democracy. Lets hope it stays that way.[/quote]
Thast the beauty of what I am saying and at last you agree. Well done. You can debate all you want because you have nothing to hide.[/quote]
It appears I may better articulate your points for you. Simply stating "nothing to hide, nothing to worry about" obviously does not reflect your stance cleary enough for dopes like us.
Then we do agree, an open debate should be had. The POTUS is not breaking the law with his executive order, but not necessarily honoring the spirit of the US constitution, therefore Congress should introduce legislation to require an expedited process with the US courts for such eavesdropping to take place on a US citizen. Oversight of the government is always warranted.
An example of why oversight is necessary.
[quote]Indeed, nothing to hide, until my views and thoughts are criminalized. [/quote]
Moreover, is the government gonna listen just because of the "terrorist things" or to know about the ppl ideas an how to change them? Of course i have nothing to hide, i am not a terrorist, but... do they have something to hide to us? Why is everything so secretly protected?
With politicians like Bush, we know absolutely nothing about their plans, cause lies come every 24/7.
ShurotH
Moreover, is the government gonna listen just because of the "terrorist things" or to know about the ppl ideas an how to change them? Of course i have nothing to hide, i am not a terrorist, but... do they have something to hide to us? Why is everything so secretly protected?
With politicians like Bush, we know absolutely nothing about their plans, cause lies come every 24/7.
ShurotH
[quote=ShurotH][quote]Indeed, nothing to hide, until my views and thoughts are criminalized. [/quote]
Moreover, is the government gonna listen just because of the "terrorist things" or to know about the ppl ideas an how to change them? Of course i have nothing to hide, i am not a terrorist, but... do they have something to hide to us? Why is everything so secretly protected?
With politicians like Bush, we know absolutely nothing about their plans, cause lies come every 24/7.
ShurotH[/quote]
Sorry but what are 'ppl ideas'?
Moreover, is the government gonna listen just because of the "terrorist things" or to know about the ppl ideas an how to change them? Of course i have nothing to hide, i am not a terrorist, but... do they have something to hide to us? Why is everything so secretly protected?
With politicians like Bush, we know absolutely nothing about their plans, cause lies come every 24/7.
ShurotH[/quote]
Sorry but what are 'ppl ideas'?
"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH
[quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
Again my opinion you are mad. What is so funny about an ad warnigng people to be careful? Maybe the people in London or those in Madrid had wished someone was vigilant?
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
Again my opinion you are mad. What is so funny about an ad warnigng people to be careful? Maybe the people in London or those in Madrid had wished someone was vigilant?
[quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.
[quote=rocketman][quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
Lets see guys, were u updated during the first steps in the Irak War? Did u know that Spain and London took part in the first (and the worst for the iraqi people) attack? Do u know what "Azores Pact" is? Do u know recognize these pictures?
Mr Bush, Mr Blair and Mr Aznar. USA, England, Spain. What do we have now? (although this is not a political forum...)
Massive attacks in the 3 countries. In Spain the conservative government, with Aznar, was "fired" 3 days after the 11 of March, in Madrid, with civil demonstrations. At first nobody knew it was an islamic group, they said it was ETA (u know, the terrorist spanish group asking for the independence of the basques) but they were just trying to avoid the relation between the 3/11 and the war.
Well, we were talking about freedom, not about incompetent governments.
And about the image: iit's fear what they wanted to mae public.
ShurotH
PS: BTW, gwaelod, there was many people vigilant (like the CIA, the english intelligence corporation and the spanish one, CNI) but they usually cannot detect anything on time. Oh! The CIA, the "best intelligence corporation" in the world! Not sure ... not sure...
The best thing USA can do i go back home, cause they have nothing more to steal in Irak. They are just trying to make sure that another convservative president comes up there supporting Bush so they can buy the oil.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
Lets see guys, were u updated during the first steps in the Irak War? Did u know that Spain and London took part in the first (and the worst for the iraqi people) attack? Do u know what "Azores Pact" is? Do u know recognize these pictures?
Mr Bush, Mr Blair and Mr Aznar. USA, England, Spain. What do we have now? (although this is not a political forum...)
Massive attacks in the 3 countries. In Spain the conservative government, with Aznar, was "fired" 3 days after the 11 of March, in Madrid, with civil demonstrations. At first nobody knew it was an islamic group, they said it was ETA (u know, the terrorist spanish group asking for the independence of the basques) but they were just trying to avoid the relation between the 3/11 and the war.
Well, we were talking about freedom, not about incompetent governments.
And about the image: iit's fear what they wanted to mae public.
ShurotH
PS: BTW, gwaelod, there was many people vigilant (like the CIA, the english intelligence corporation and the spanish one, CNI) but they usually cannot detect anything on time. Oh! The CIA, the "best intelligence corporation" in the world! Not sure ... not sure...
The best thing USA can do i go back home, cause they have nothing more to steal in Irak. They are just trying to make sure that another convservative president comes up there supporting Bush so they can buy the oil.
[quote=rocketman][quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?
How many unattended bags on trains in the US have been bombs? I live in Barcelona, and lived in Madrid (within blocks of ETA bombs on multiple occassions, and once one blew up at my office building although I was out of town on business), never saw an advertising campaign like that. Maybe the folks in the US do need to be scared to be aware...
I do not find the ad funny though. Indeed, raising public awareness about threats is good, but there is a fine line between creating fear and creating reasoned awareness. And of course opinions on an ad campaign such as this is purely subjective.
Besides, on a crowded standing room only train at rush hour in any city in any country, it would be difficult to spot an orphaned bag. Terrorists tend not to target empty trains where it would be obvious unless they call ahead in the first place...
I do not find the ad funny though. Indeed, raising public awareness about threats is good, but there is a fine line between creating fear and creating reasoned awareness. And of course opinions on an ad campaign such as this is purely subjective.
Besides, on a crowded standing room only train at rush hour in any city in any country, it would be difficult to spot an orphaned bag. Terrorists tend not to target empty trains where it would be obvious unless they call ahead in the first place...
[quote=gwaelod][quote=rocketman][quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?[/quote]
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment.
Something i learned in the US this september is that u usually don't have to worry about things happening around, u just keep walking and everything will be ok.
Well, at least in the european countries where i've been to, this is not like this.
I tried to explain it!
ShurotH
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?[/quote]
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment.
Something i learned in the US this september is that u usually don't have to worry about things happening around, u just keep walking and everything will be ok.
Well, at least in the european countries where i've been to, this is not like this.
I tried to explain it!
ShurotH
[quote=ShurotH][quote=gwaelod][quote=rocketman][quote=ShurotH]"Ppl ideas" means everyones personal things. It's typical from the north american governments to think that everyone has a plot against them, and that everybody "thinking too much" is dangerous. They want a stupid population (that's why the public schools have the lowest level in the "first world", but that's a different topic to talk about) and they wanna be the "big brother", just like a paternalistic government.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?[/quote]
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment.
Something i learned in the US this september is that u usually don't have to worry about things happening around, u just keep walking and everything will be ok.
Well, at least in the european countries where i've been to, this is not like this.
I tried to explain it!
ShurotH[/quote]
I am European, live in Europe and have seen signs like this all my life and I do not find them funny. They are just a stark reminder of the mad world we live in and the need for secuirity.
Well, in my opinion, that's not freedom. The security there nowadays is crazy, they are paranoiac. I'll show u an example:
That's an ad i found in a train going to NY this september. I had to take a picture of that cause it was so crazy. The funny thing is that when i came back to Spain, everybody started to laugh here when they saw that crazy ad. Is this freedom? Is this living pacifically? This is fear.
And why are they raising the security level every month?Because of the 9/11 attacks. And why were they attacked? Because of the Bush administration (actually not only the Bush's administration, but also the US administration in general). They try to be paternalistic with the rest of the world and sometimes they bump into a fanatical group of ppl, which are poor, and they only have theirselfs to attack the "king of the world" (blowing up, of course)
Again, my opinion
ShurotH[/quote]
So why were you atacked because of the Bush admistration no I dont think so. Do tell us what his admin had to do with Madrid.[/quote]
I am still confused as to what you find funny about an advertisement warning people to be on the look out for bombs? Its a simple question whats funny and crazy about it?[/quote]
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment.
Something i learned in the US this september is that u usually don't have to worry about things happening around, u just keep walking and everything will be ok.
Well, at least in the european countries where i've been to, this is not like this.
I tried to explain it!
ShurotH[/quote]
I am European, live in Europe and have seen signs like this all my life and I do not find them funny. They are just a stark reminder of the mad world we live in and the need for secuirity.
[quote=joaquinkline]Is the use of spies really newsworthy in todays world? Is anyone surprised? What surprised me most about this latest "development" is the number of people who were surprised... I personally dont care and figured they were always doing it. BTW, does anyone believe that Bush is the first (and will be the last?)....[/quote]
Actually I'm wondering if I'm the only person that doesn't believe in all this "war on terror" garbage.
Actually I'm wondering if I'm the only person that doesn't believe in all this "war on terror" garbage.
[quote=muppetmaster]No, nothing to worry about.
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/vc007260.jpg[/quote]
Side splitter, thanks. "I am not a crook"
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/oliphant/vc007260.jpg[/quote]
Side splitter, thanks. "I am not a crook"
War on getting more oil. God bless America.
[quote=muppetblaster]War on getting more oil. God bless America.[/quote]
So you don't use any oil do you?
So you don't use any oil do you?
[quote=gwaelod][quote=muppetblaster]War on getting more oil. God bless America.[/quote]
So you don't use any oil do you?[/quote]
Of course I do!
So you don't use any oil do you?[/quote]
Of course I do!
[quote=CNN]Democratic House leaders called Sunday for an independent panel to investigate the legality of a program President Bush authorized that allows warrantless wiretaps on U.S. citizens, according to a letter to House Speaker Dennis Hastert.
"We believe that the President must have the best possible intelligence to protect the American people, but that intelligence must be produced in a manner consistent with our Constitution and our laws, and in a manner that reflects our values as a nation," the letter says.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi; Minority Whip Steny Hoyer; Rep. John Conyers, the ranking member on the House Judiciary Committee; and Rep. Henry Waxman, the ranking member on the House Committee on Government Reform, signed the letter.[/quote]
Looks like the Presidential authority on this one is in question. Checks and balances are in place within a healthy democracy for a reason. The President is not above the law.
Source
Listened to the Sunday 'Meet the Press' with Condelezza Rice, at the time the National Security Advisor to Bush, who kept saying that the President had constitutional and statutorial authority, but then failed to name any of those supporting laws beyond FISA. And FISA clearly states the need for court approval to monitor US citizens.
"We believe that the President must have the best possible intelligence to protect the American people, but that intelligence must be produced in a manner consistent with our Constitution and our laws, and in a manner that reflects our values as a nation," the letter says.
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi; Minority Whip Steny Hoyer; Rep. John Conyers, the ranking member on the House Judiciary Committee; and Rep. Henry Waxman, the ranking member on the House Committee on Government Reform, signed the letter.[/quote]
Looks like the Presidential authority on this one is in question. Checks and balances are in place within a healthy democracy for a reason. The President is not above the law.
Source
Listened to the Sunday 'Meet the Press' with Condelezza Rice, at the time the National Security Advisor to Bush, who kept saying that the President had constitutional and statutorial authority, but then failed to name any of those supporting laws beyond FISA. And FISA clearly states the need for court approval to monitor US citizens.
[quote=ShurotH]
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment. [/quote]
I find it sad that it is obvious to you to look for bombs. In the US, the citizens have been lucky enough to not have to worry about such things. It is not obvious for a US citizen to be looking for evidence of violence in public forums. For the most part, there has never been a reason to fear such acts of violence.
Now there is. It makes perfect sense that posters making people aware of the possible dangers would be necessary. These are people who have never had to worry before.
I guess in other parts of the world you do have to worry. And while you make fun of the US for having to inform its citizens to watch for possible bombs, I'd say it is far more sad that other countries take such possibilities as commonplace and common sense. To just take for granted that you need to watch for bombs is a scary thought to me.
We cannot understand each other (i assume u life in the US) cause our first education and our culture isn't based in the same set of values. Ahm, it's funny generally to europeans cause it kind of silly and ad like this one. Like, for example, saying: "u have to breathe or u will die!". It's something obvious.
What's the problem? Are u usually walking happy, carefree, around the cities? Don't u look around while walking? Well, i do care about my environment. [/quote]
I find it sad that it is obvious to you to look for bombs. In the US, the citizens have been lucky enough to not have to worry about such things. It is not obvious for a US citizen to be looking for evidence of violence in public forums. For the most part, there has never been a reason to fear such acts of violence.
Now there is. It makes perfect sense that posters making people aware of the possible dangers would be necessary. These are people who have never had to worry before.
I guess in other parts of the world you do have to worry. And while you make fun of the US for having to inform its citizens to watch for possible bombs, I'd say it is far more sad that other countries take such possibilities as commonplace and common sense. To just take for granted that you need to watch for bombs is a scary thought to me.
Al Queda is B.S.
It's now a catch all and blame all organizatoin
It is nothing more than a convienant excuse for the President and various other power hungry people to get away with any crap they want.
It's now a catch all and blame all organizatoin
It is nothing more than a convienant excuse for the President and various other power hungry people to get away with any crap they want.
[quote=granger]I find it sad that it is obvious to you to look for bombs. In the US, the citizens have been lucky enough to not have to worry about such things. It is not obvious for a US citizen to be looking for evidence of violence in public forums. For the most part, there has never been a reason to fear such acts of violence.[/quote]
False, as Oklahoma City, abortion clinic bombings and Sept 11th proved. There was always a reason to be aware, domestically and abroad.
[quote=granger]Now there is.[/quote]
But there always was. The threat was there leading up to Sept 11th, the US did not come into danger 'after' Sept 11th.
[quote=granger]It makes perfect sense that posters making people aware of the possible dangers would be necessary. These are people who have never had to worry before.[/quote]
They did, they just didn't.
[quote=granger]I guess in other parts of the world you do have to worry. And while you make fun of the US for having to inform its citizens to watch for possible bombs, I'd say it is far more sad that other countries take such possibilities as commonplace and common sense.[/quote]
Welcome to the real world, the US faced these threats prior to Sept 11th as does much of the world.
[quote=granger]To just take for granted that you need to watch for bombs is a scary thought to me.[/quote]
No, common sense in an ever changing world where inequity is growing not decreasing.
False, as Oklahoma City, abortion clinic bombings and Sept 11th proved. There was always a reason to be aware, domestically and abroad.
[quote=granger]Now there is.[/quote]
But there always was. The threat was there leading up to Sept 11th, the US did not come into danger 'after' Sept 11th.
[quote=granger]It makes perfect sense that posters making people aware of the possible dangers would be necessary. These are people who have never had to worry before.[/quote]
They did, they just didn't.
[quote=granger]I guess in other parts of the world you do have to worry. And while you make fun of the US for having to inform its citizens to watch for possible bombs, I'd say it is far more sad that other countries take such possibilities as commonplace and common sense.[/quote]
Welcome to the real world, the US faced these threats prior to Sept 11th as does much of the world.
[quote=granger]To just take for granted that you need to watch for bombs is a scary thought to me.[/quote]
No, common sense in an ever changing world where inequity is growing not decreasing.
[quote=muppetmaster]But there always was. The threat was there leading up to Sept 11th, the US did not come into danger 'after' Sept 11th.
[/quote]
Fair enough. Perhaps it was a shift in perception and not reality. I do believe that US citizens perceived that there was no reason to be vigilant against such acts of violence before 9/11, even if it was an illusion -- an illusion that even I seem to have gotten caught up in.
It is likely good that the US now understands that its citizens should be vigilant on such matters. Years of illusion have made US citizens complacent. Such posters are sadly necessary at this stage in US History.
[/quote]
Fair enough. Perhaps it was a shift in perception and not reality. I do believe that US citizens perceived that there was no reason to be vigilant against such acts of violence before 9/11, even if it was an illusion -- an illusion that even I seem to have gotten caught up in.
It is likely good that the US now understands that its citizens should be vigilant on such matters. Years of illusion have made US citizens complacent. Such posters are sadly necessary at this stage in US History.
[quote=granger]Fair enough. Perhaps it was a shift in perception and not reality. I do believe that US citizens perceived that there was no reason to be vigilant against such acts of violence before 9/11, even if it was an illusion -- an illusion that even I seem to have gotten caught up in.
It is likely good that the US now understands that its citizens should be vigilant on such matters. Years of illusion have made US citizens complacent. Such posters are sadly necessary at this stage in US History.[/quote]
I agree it is an issue of perception and complacency, and not that the threat was not there. Some education is indeed necessary, hence why I did not find the advertisements 'funny'. But at the same time there is a fine line between creating fear and creating reasoned awareness.
This is creating fear:
http://zfacts.com/p/581.html
And my personal favorite:
[quote=Condelezza Rice]...We don't want The smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...[/quote]
I am not asserting these statements were misleading, that is for another debate, but the collective effort was to scare the American public into attack of a sovereign nation.
Fearmongering is never justified. Further on this point and into the society that is the US, nowhere is fear more present than in the US. Just watch the nightly news once in a while to find out how many ways you may die, how many threats there are to your children, how many threats...threats...threats.
I do not find this propogation of fear to nearly this degree in media outside of the US, and indeed find Europeans much less fearful of the realities of life and simply more aware. If you mix the US culture of fear with the ad program, then you might see why folks from outside the US might consider this a bit much.
It is likely good that the US now understands that its citizens should be vigilant on such matters. Years of illusion have made US citizens complacent. Such posters are sadly necessary at this stage in US History.[/quote]
I agree it is an issue of perception and complacency, and not that the threat was not there. Some education is indeed necessary, hence why I did not find the advertisements 'funny'. But at the same time there is a fine line between creating fear and creating reasoned awareness.
This is creating fear:
http://zfacts.com/p/581.html
And my personal favorite:
[quote=Condelezza Rice]...We don't want The smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud...[/quote]
I am not asserting these statements were misleading, that is for another debate, but the collective effort was to scare the American public into attack of a sovereign nation.
Fearmongering is never justified. Further on this point and into the society that is the US, nowhere is fear more present than in the US. Just watch the nightly news once in a while to find out how many ways you may die, how many threats there are to your children, how many threats...threats...threats.
I do not find this propogation of fear to nearly this degree in media outside of the US, and indeed find Europeans much less fearful of the realities of life and simply more aware. If you mix the US culture of fear with the ad program, then you might see why folks from outside the US might consider this a bit much.
Hey granger, i agree with muppetmaster: the real world is this one, there is sometimes no security against huge things. We don't "look bombs or terrorists" here, we just look around while living our life. In the spanish example, we were 40 years under a dictatorship and we have the ETA basque terrorist group (like the one in Ireland, asking for the independence with weapons). I've never seen anything, even heart a bomb or anything, but it's something that can happen. The government isn't ur father in the real life, they cannot control everything cause then citizens freedom will be violated (like in the US nowadays, and even in England after the attacks).
Perhaps i was disrespectful with the "laughing at the ad" thing. Sorry for that, it's just the reaction that people here had. It's ok to have an advertising campaign for the security things, but this ad is demagogue and creates fear in between the population. THAT was the funny thing, the absurd of saying "...or A BOMB" with super huge capital letters :shock: crazy...
As muppetmaster said: welcome to the real world, not everything is perfect and safe, and sometimes the US administrations make life unsafe for people in other countries, like south america.
ShurotH
Perhaps i was disrespectful with the "laughing at the ad" thing. Sorry for that, it's just the reaction that people here had. It's ok to have an advertising campaign for the security things, but this ad is demagogue and creates fear in between the population. THAT was the funny thing, the absurd of saying "...or A BOMB" with super huge capital letters :shock: crazy...
As muppetmaster said: welcome to the real world, not everything is perfect and safe, and sometimes the US administrations make life unsafe for people in other countries, like south america.
ShurotH
9/11 has turned into a Joseph Goebbelization of American society by greedy capitalist opportunists and their politicians. What's sad is that the wakeup call is only starting to be heard inside the USA while the rest of the world has been scratching their heads in dismay for the past 4 years while they plunder.
[quote=slvaldor]9/11 has turned into a Joseph Goebbelization of American society by greedy capitalist opportunists and their politicians. What's sad is that the wakeup call is only starting to be heard inside the USA while the rest of the world has been scratching their heads in dismay for the past 4 years while they plunder.[/quote]
Yioppie!!!
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.
Yioppie!!!
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.
[quote=acier-steele]Yioppie!!!
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.[/quote]
The only good thing to come out of the French language is menage a trios. Ribbit.
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.[/quote]
The only good thing to come out of the French language is menage a trios. Ribbit.
[quote=acier-steele]Yioppie!!!
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.[/quote]
Salut l'Acadien, pourquoi ton profil dit que tu habites à Paris si tu demeures en Gaspésie ?
[quote=muppetmaster]The only good thing to come out of the French language is menage a trios. Ribbit.[/quote]
LMAO hey don't forget French Kiss, French Wine, French Lace and my personal favourite, French Anti-Americanism
Quebecois!!!
Je suis un Acaiden. Mais J'habite la Gaspesie.
Desole, un clavier anglais.[/quote]
Salut l'Acadien, pourquoi ton profil dit que tu habites à Paris si tu demeures en Gaspésie ?
[quote=muppetmaster]The only good thing to come out of the French language is menage a trios. Ribbit.[/quote]
LMAO hey don't forget French Kiss, French Wine, French Lace and my personal favourite, French Anti-Americanism
[quote=slvaldor]
Salut l'Acadien, pourquoi ton profil dit que tu habites à Paris si tu demeures en Gaspésie ?[/quote]
Travail !
Je suis un realisateur et tourn au Paris.
[quote=slvaldor]
LMAO hey don't forget French Kiss, French Wine, French Lace and my personal favourite, French Anti-Americanism[/quote]
Well...
French Kiss is great but they don't have mouth wash or dental floss in France. So I'll pass on kissing true french women.
French wine isn't all that great. It's more hype than anything else. I prefer Italian and Portuguese wines.
((But on that note, French Beer really sucks!!! Even Canadien beer in France sucks!!! Compared to French Beer, American lite Beer is awsome!!))
French Lace is manufactured in China but it is cheap and does look pretty good on a nice female butt.
As for French Anti-Americanism....
Well Americans do tend to be a little on the dumb side. However, I'll do business with Americans any day. I'll sit down with the biggest ignorant redneck and split a beer.
But when it comes to Frenchmen, I have learned to watch my back. I'm white, speak the language and have money. And I'm still receiving prejudice because of my accent and height.
My visa is finished in May and I won't be seeking to renew it. After 2 years I am ready to go home and sit on my ass in paspebiac. I could write a book about the true french.
Suffisant to say I believe that the best thing to happen to the Quebecois and Acadiens is we are not part of france any longer.
Salut l'Acadien, pourquoi ton profil dit que tu habites à Paris si tu demeures en Gaspésie ?[/quote]
Travail !
Je suis un realisateur et tourn au Paris.
[quote=slvaldor]
LMAO hey don't forget French Kiss, French Wine, French Lace and my personal favourite, French Anti-Americanism
[/quote]
Well...
French Kiss is great but they don't have mouth wash or dental floss in France. So I'll pass on kissing true french women.
French wine isn't all that great. It's more hype than anything else. I prefer Italian and Portuguese wines.
((But on that note, French Beer really sucks!!! Even Canadien beer in France sucks!!! Compared to French Beer, American lite Beer is awsome!!))
French Lace is manufactured in China but it is cheap and does look pretty good on a nice female butt.
As for French Anti-Americanism....
Well Americans do tend to be a little on the dumb side. However, I'll do business with Americans any day. I'll sit down with the biggest ignorant redneck and split a beer.
But when it comes to Frenchmen, I have learned to watch my back. I'm white, speak the language and have money. And I'm still receiving prejudice because of my accent and height.
My visa is finished in May and I won't be seeking to renew it. After 2 years I am ready to go home and sit on my ass in paspebiac. I could write a book about the true french.
Suffisant to say I believe that the best thing to happen to the Quebecois and Acadiens is we are not part of france any longer.
[quote=muppetmaster]No, nothing to worry about.
[/quote]
This is, by far, your best post.
[/quote]
This is, by far, your best post.
For those of you who lack a sense of history. :wink:
[quote=acier-steele]
Je suis un Acaiden. [/quote]
Ton pays,
ce n'est pas un pays, c'est la neige...
Je suis un Acaiden. [/quote]
Ton pays,
ce n'est pas un pays, c'est la neige...
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